Stay is in Limbo
The stay is not granted–not yet anyways.
If it is granted, expect the documents to be off the table for 1+ years as the Supreme Court hears the case.
I’m a bit mystified, personally, that the stay is essentially in effect even before it has been approved or disapproved. Seems to me the only thing “official” is the judge’s order, which says the documents are public, and until the same judge or another judge says something to the contrary, that ruling ought to be enforced. Update: I called City Attorney James Santoro and left a message to this effect, and asking after clarification of his point-of-view that the records are presently not public.
On a related note, here’s a question that has been gnawing at me: How did the governing board of Southern Montana authorize this appeal? Clearly not by an official meeting. Sounds like Tim Gregori is speaking on our behalf (Great Falls is a member of Southern) against our own public interest. Sick, abusive, Bizarro World variety stuff–as usual.
Travis, that was my mistake – my apologies – the headline has since been corrected.
No need to apologize … You’re probably just ahead of the news by a little stretch anyways! (though a stay is probably more likely to come from the Supremes, not the PO’d Judge Phillips)
Travis, I posted a corrected version of the story with an explanation: http://www1.krtv.com/news/sme-requests-stay-on-release-of-highwood-generating-station-documents/
Travis, like lightning, these things tend to follow the path of least resistance.
I don’t know the answer to this, and I do not have time today to research it. Generally, though, it seems that if the stay is not automatic, and it does not appear to be in this instance, whether or not to grant it would be a decision of the trial judge.
Since it is in the judge’s discretion (in other words, he might not grant it), I am not sure how or why anyone can assume that he will grant it and act as though it has already been granted. Thus, my shoot from the hip, unofficial legal guess is that there is no stay in force right now, and the City should allow any member of the public to research the documents.
Further, I think the Court also has the discretion to order a bond or undertaking on appeal. In other words, he can make SME post a bond in the amount of MEIC’s fees, I think.
I wish I had time to research this, but I don’t.
Ever more reason NOW for our city commission to ‘dig into’ the ‘black box’ with Mary’s guidance………..they represent us and deal with this intolerable situation.
Just placed a phone message with James Santoro, to the effect of: “a judge’s order is in effect and neither that judge nor another has stayed that order. in the interim, surely the documents are open to the public, no? If not, could you please clarify and cite authority?”
maybe the City Commission and attorney should make a statement as to whether they support this appeal or not. I’m not the brightest bulb in the package, but we need to know if GF is going to support open government or not.
Travis and Gregg, Your legal interpretations appear spot on. It is good you are holding the cities feet to the fire on this by requiring a legal citation as to wether the stay is automatic just because SME filed for one. This is tantamount to getting an injunction without going to court and/or posting big bond. If anyone else tried the reverse on staying HGS construction, say prior to receiving a court decision (i.e. landowners versus SME presently in the Supreme Court) they would have to post millions in bonds prior to asking for an injunction. This is all not fair to the public’s right in these regards! Why is it the public always get screwed?
djsGF — the City is *not* supporting the appeal, or so James Santoro has said
I just took this one step further. As a GF taxpayer I just called the city attorney’s office and requested that during this limbo period that I be given access to the secret box. I am awaiting a respose this afternoon…..
This is beginning to resemble a termite joke*
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Well, the new city attorney has apparently skipped town without returning my phone call message as promised by his secretary. I wonder why we pay these guys the big bucks, when the heat is on they disappear. Leaving town at the height of the battle is intolerable without one hell of a good excuse! Oh well he just copies his boss……
Yo ! Taxpayer !!! Get your ducks straight !! The city attorney went home for the week end—the man has not seen his family for over three weeks and certainly deserves that break–so get off his back–and while I am at it the city commission does NOT SUPPORT this appeal and we will act in the best interest of the city. Lastly, you can bet your shorts, this commission, the city manager and the city attorney will not disappear when the heat is on. So manny up ,the ride is about to begin!!
Thank you for the post Mr. Mayor. It’s refreshing to see an elected official interact with the public in an open forum. It’s also refreshing to see the boss standing up for one of his employees.
It looks as if Travis will be visiting this morning. Hope you can be there.
Mr. Winters, Taxpayer says he was promised a return call. No excuse for leaving someone hanging. The secretary could have called back on the city atty’s behalf. “Accountability” that you claim to support requires no less, not excuses. Please “get your ducks straight.”
Good morning Mr. Moore!!
Taxpayer was told(not promised) the city attorney would return his call,
perhaps he was not given a specific time frame by which that call would be returned. I will bet you a cool one that taxpayer will hear from the attorney. I do believe time has arrived to stop picking the fly do out of the pepper and start working with the city commission to solve the problems. Again I state get your ducks straight and manny up. Be part of the solution not part of the problem.
Criticize if you will —-but also add solutions
I believe it would be easier to remove the burr from under the blanket, than to try and ride the horse!!
Wishing you a good day sir !!
Mr. Winters, Taxpayer’s experience defines much of the upset and anger over how things have gone wrong. Citizens have been ignored. Your response also typifies the problems, slapping down someone who was trying to get answers from their public servants.
When trying to build public trust while demonstrating accountability for even the most simplest of normal human interactions involving important issues, treating a citizen request as unimportant, defending that insult, and then attacking the citizen leaves much to be desired. A 5 minute phone call would have gone far…even by cellphone while in transit. Not to worry though, people have already been conditioned to expect such treatment as demonstrate by both the city atty and you.
I’m willing to cut the City Attorney a bit of slack, Craig, if only because I *know* he really has been incredibly busy cleaning house. Still, I’d love to see a written explanation, citing legal authorities, for why the “secret box,” in the absence of a stay of Judge Phillips order to open it, is still “secret”
Once again Good morning Mr. Moore !
I am sure you and I will never see eye to eye–but I am sure you are a pretty good person.
I also believe to the depth of my being ” it is far better to see the positive in most things”I also believe in good manners. How about you ,sir?
Travis, so your phone call hasn’t been returned either on this trivial matter? I guess there must be far more important people to satisfy first on more important matters. Mayor Winter’s impolitic attack on Taxpayer rubs me wrong. It was an opportunity for him to demonstrate he really is a different leader. Oh well….
Mr. Winters, the verbal massage provides only temporary relief. A citizen usually only has their own experience as the lens through which they view their public officials. They don’t even have to be right to feel mistreated.
I would rather Mayor Winters be impolitic than just utterly silent. Which is the other option, Craig, unless you want him to be utterly bereft of the occasionally sassy personality which, imho, makes the mayor charming and personable!
These guys really *are* on the right track — and James Santoro has shot to the top of the “favorite city employees” list given his take-control attitude. It’s just that, for the moment, I really don’t think the City has any legal leg to stand on to refuse to carry out Judge Phillips’ order. Everyone always conjures up the “liability” issue — I just don’t see how complying with the plain meaning of a judicial order can expose someone to liability.
Travis, just think how this conversation would have gone down if Mayor Winters had simply said something to the effect that he appreciates everyone’s concerns and will contact the city atty to get answers for those that have asked… and post the response here.
Craig, while I usually am in agreement with many of your comments, I believe we do have a “new” day at city hall and I am willing to cut our new city attorney some slack. Being away from a family for a long period of time certainly is a pretty good reason to leave for an extended weekend. The city attorney had no way of knowing when and what the judge was going to say in his ruling and for all we know the Montana Supreme Court may act favorably for SME on granting a TI. I personally believe they will grant a TI and then rule rather quickly in favor of Judge Phillips and thus the information will be relaesed. All of this will be done with or without the city attorney. I do that he stated several days ago that the city was NOT going to join in an appeal of the judge’s ruling. I don’t know the city attorney but it sounds like he is at least willing to provide some solid advice to the city. I also know that Mayor Winters is trying to do his absolute best in achieving some semblance of harmony and order at city hall. Give the mayor a break! Remember what it was like just two and a half short months ago……Mayor Stebbins would not have lowered herself to actually discuss (under her name) issues with you or anyone else. Winters is one of the “good” guys at city hall.
anonynous: “Give the mayor a break!” But teacher he started it with his duck talk. He must think some of us are a bunch of pluckers.
Seriously, though he has missed a golden opportunity by merely accepting the input, promise to act on those concerns with a call to the city atty, and report back with the answer within a couple of hours…without involving the ducks. Them poor damn ducks have their own problems crossing the border and all.
I didn’t see this before my last response: http://electriccityweblog.com/?p=9078&cpage=1#comment-30200
Kinda makes one feel that someone else put bananas in the toes of his shoes without looking before putting them on.
Mr. Moore !
Times are a change’n!!! I believe I would rub you wrong no matter what I did or do –so be it–I have long stated I appreciate every ones concerns and sir I do not think you or any one else is a duck plucker (some time some one may act as such how ever )!! Also I do believe next week and the next few days many questions may well be answered, But rest to sure you probably will not be satisfied. May be you should think about giving me a call I will bet we could have a great cup of coffee and chat..What do you think of that ?? The ball is in your court !!
Mr. Winters, how far are you willing to travel to have that cup?
Yo Mr, Mayor SIR and others, I appreciate the support, critics, and responses. It is good we all have a place here to air our complaints and a new Mayor who is willing to participate and listen. I was expecting a reply yesterday before the city attorney left town or at least a reply with a message from his secretary. He is new and has to get moved, I understand that. He is also now on full salary and can/should be in close touch with city hall during these times of breaking legal actions and questions.
Mr Mayor Winters SIR, I and many other citizens have been riding this horse for many years, long before you were even aware of these problems, so please sir cut us citizens a little slack. We want to help you get this mess cleaned up. We have been heavily involved and know what needs to be done. Just ask please……
[...] a lively discussion over at Electric City Weblog about the (non)-release of SME documents, and someone going by “A Taxpayer” left the [...]
Mr. Mayor, While I too find your participation in a public forum refreshing, your use of exclamation points makes it seem that you have gone on the defensive and that your are shouting. I think your replies will be better accepted if you weren’t quite so forceful.
mt59405
Not shouting,nor angry,not even disappointed,matter of fact I do love the bantering back and forth, this whole thing is exciting.I am not on the defense, I am aggressive and to the point. Hell, I would love to meet all you critters (opps)
I mean fine fellows and talk in person, I believe we could circle the wagons finally get off dead center and do some damn good for our community (TOGETHER THAT IS). I know full well most of you
have been riding this horse to death now let’s put down all the negative chat and talk about reasonable solutions. Again, I say come on down to the commission meetings and speak your piece you really have nothing to fear . This commission will listen ( but we will not put up with any nonsense).
To put you at ease, I know I rub some folks wrong and there are many who probably don’t care much for me, but the long and the short of it all is I do seem to get some things done and I do rise to the challenge, now how bad can that be!!!?.(not shorting of course)
With respect
Michael J
Yes your honor you can count on us being at the podium as we have been for the past several years talking and suggesting apparently to no avail. Had the past commissions paid the lest attention and listened to our citizen suggestion and SOLUTIONS we would not be in the hurt we are today. I only hope that you SIR will now start to listen carefully as the solutions will become evident “from the podium”, once again. we have always been respectful although the former mayor was not. Our skin is pretty thick, so whatever happens we will eventually prevail to make our community whole once again. Our families have been here since day one and we will not let the likes of SME rule our city. We helped get you elected, to effect that end, and do expect MORE positive action from you soon….
Good morning to all !!
Taxpayer–I have been here a long time myself(1955) and our family is fifth generation–so you can see our roots are here and we are not newcomers. Pray tell Taxpayer what more can I do–check out the last two months of our service –it appears we have accomplished more than has been accomplished in a long time. Please remember positive action works both ways, and it is this commission who is encouraging all to step up to the podium with no fear of being sent out. So PLEASE don’t preach to me about listening and action. Thank you and may you have a great day today.
Michael J
Mr. Moore good morning to you .
How far ? How far do I need to travel !!??Hell I’ll even buy !! (opps should not have used that exclamation mark, just having a tad of fun )
Mr. Winters, about 12 hours by car.
MR. Moore.
That is a tad too far. I would rather go fishen and drink a beer or two .Try a wee bit closer to our community ,that is where I send my time and money.If you are 12 hours away good luck and enjoy your coffee.
Michael Winters: “The ball is in your court !!”
I had a feeling you wouldn’t show if I accepted your offer.
Now, enough of the boasting and verbal GA. As I suggested above, it would be very simple for you to contact the city atty and secure an answer for both Travis and Taxpayer and post it here. Why haven’t you completed this very humble request on behalf of those you serve?
I did accept your offer –but damn it –be honest and name a place here not 12 hours away.
The city attorney is enjoying his family and being home for two and half days and I getting a wee tired of you folks implying I am not doing my job. If you have all the answers why in the world didn’t you run for office then you could bitch all you wanted-perhaps as you do now. Now mt59405-me thinks that may be defensive. How am I doing so far?
Damn it’s a great day!
Mr. Winters, you insinuated yourself into this conversation with your impolitic attack on Taxpayer. Then, you challenged me with your emphatic, “The ball is in your court !!” Well, my court happens to be where I am.
But as I said, enough of the verbal GA. Let’s get back to the issue with some basic questions:
–Do you know the city atty’s position on the issue at hand?
–If so, will you please state it here?
–If not, do you have a phone number where the city atty can be reached?
–If so, will you please call him and report back here?
Mr. Winters, you say you are accountable, well, it’s show time.
Did the city attorney get a city supplied cellphone so he can be reached as needed? A 30 second call would not ruin his day with the family.
Mr. Moore
Good for you . you are wasting my time.I have been up front and honest with you and all your requests.I have also been polite.
Now I can clearly see why the honorable past mayor stopped being part of this fourm. Too bad peaple like you ruin it for the many.I have no more to add.
Good luck to you.
Mr. Winters, enough of the prevarications. Simple request. And please don’t whine about being insulted after what you have demonstrated with your Sirs, ducks and cocky remarks. You seem very fragile and thin skinned. Please return whenever you like, you will have no further feedback from me. I am quite finished with you.
Mayor Winters:
I’m sorry Craig’s innocuous if annoying line of questioning proved to be too overwhelming for you. Craig is grating, but that shouldn’t deter you as mayor from posting on this forum. I submit to you that it’s time to face the facts: when you decided to run for office, you signed yourself up — like it or not — for questioning and criticism. This particular issue smells pretty ripe, and as mayor you should be even more angry than the average citizen that these documents are still not open to the public. WHERE’S THE SENSE OF URGENCY??
Dona Stebbins stopped participating on this blog because she is a diva. If you stop being willing to tolerate criticism — even the nonsensical, obnoxious kind — then you’ve stopped doing your job.
Don’t be a diva, too, Mayor Mike.
Anonymous
Be assured I am not overwhelmed and I will continue to answer questions put before me as best I can. In fairness I don’t deserve to be red assed by Moore, take away his Webster Dictionary and A-Z Thesaurus and he probably would be speechless.(Not a bad idea) I am confident the documents in question will be available to the public when all the court actions are settled.We have struggled for over five years,what is two or three days? Why risk more costs and more litigation when we have a chance to do things correctly. SME is NOT ruling our city,we ,the city commission ,city manager and council, with your help will make the right decision at the right time.
I am not thin skinned nor fragile and I accept criticism fairly well especially when I am wrong.
I will not disturb a man who has not seen his children,wife, dog and home for three weeks.He deserves better from us.
Lastly what is a diva?Tell me so I wouldn’t be one (if that is less than favorable)
As I have stated before I enjoy the bantering but not the red assing.
Gregg and Travis, I would be interested in your thoughts about Mayor Winters remarks how the City is better off by not abiding by Judge Phillips original decision and waiting for him to say whether he really meant what he ruled.
Craig: 12 hours away? Where do you live….Utah, Colorado, Minnesota? I apprecaite your comments but I think you are out of line to attack our mayor about having coffee. I mean, really 12 hours is at least 600 miles away and I don’t blame the mayor (or anyone) for not wanting to drive 1200 miles round trip. As far as the real issue (Judge Phillips/SME/ECP/ect.) I think you and taxpayer need to be a little more forgiving. The mayor and city manager are obviously following the recommendation from the new city attorney. Only a fool would go against the advice of their attorney and later wind up on the losing end of a lawsuit. Then you and others would be screaming bloody murder at the waste of taxpayer dollars. A delay of severeal days is not too much to ask especially after a wait of several years! I suspect 99% of the “stuff” to be released will prove to be extremely uninteresting. It will be the other 1% that will be of great interest…..maybe. I am a great supporter of Mary Jolley; but I am curious why the silence? I believe she is the only city commissioner (maybe Bronson?) that has actually seen the contents of the “black box”. If Judge Phillips’ ruling really is to be followed immediately after it was delivered there would be no reason for Mary to remain silent on what she read. Then again, just maybe, Mary understands a legal reason for her silence that may have come from the new city attorney???? I don’t know and I suspect nobody else knows either.
Anonymous, I am away from Montana for family/medical reasons. I am tethered to my present location. As for attacking Mayor Winters, we wouldn’t be having this conversation without the mayor insinuating himself into the conversation to slap Taxpayer around. Furthermore, I was responding to his offer and challenge. If, as you suggest, the mayor is following the city atty’s advice, that explains why it is unnecessary to contact him, Mayor Winters already knows the answer. Is it so hard for the mayor to share that answer here without the prevarications? We are only 12 hours away because of the dearth of substantive response.
Craig: I sincerely hope all goes well for your family and the medical situation! Perhaps you and the mayor will be able to connect when you return. I will leave it to the mayor to respond on what he does and does not know. I guess I am a little curious if he has actually seen the contents of the famous “black box”?
anonymous, peace. I understand where you are coming from…AND thank you!
No I have not seen of the famous black box–but will take a peek in due time.Mr.Moore I do hope all is well with your family. I bit no hostlity toward anyone’s family nor to you .I wish you well.
Good Sunday Morning
My spelling is terrible–previous statement should read ” I bid no hostility etc” I just get too excited and write too fast.I will take my time and do a better job. Mr. Moore I wish you and family well.
Just a quick note this Sunday afternoon. Our new city attorney is back on the job and gave me a return call today. We had a cordial conversation and I was impressed with his comments and attitude. Tomorrow will be an interesting day for all and do remember this is “Sunshine Week” so lets hope that the it shines brightly this next week on city hall!
Than you Mr.Santori for the return call it was appreciated……
Taxpayer, thanks for sharing.
Craig,
Thanks for your support and inputs here and please stay tuned as this will get interesting during the next day or two. You can rest assured the people of GF are not rolling over anymore for SME, at least not most of us…..
Taxpayer, I hope you are right. From what I have seen of Mayor Winters involvement here, I have zero confidence that he will stand up on behalf of the citizens when the going gets tough. His non-answer answers were pathetic. Just my opinion, and I hope he will not just talk tough in the future but actually will be tough where necessary. Tomorrow is a new day. Let’s all pray that it will be brighter.
To his (Mayors) credit he and three comrade commissioners have taken one bold step, these past two and half months, in abolishing a useless rubber stamping SME Board. Lets see if these leaders can now stand up to the SME gangsters without going into the fetal position as ALL (Except Mary Jolley) have during the past five years! The proof will show up very soon, and they will either prove to be agin us(the people) or for us(the people). I leave my position open on final judgement of these leaders until then which is coming very soon-like tomorrow…..