Count Me Out
There’s an interesting thread developing (H/T Reason) relating to how much we should trust our government. The first volley came from Ezra Klein as he asserts that the recent town hall protests are a sign that it’s democracy, rather than health care, that is sick. Klein writes:
What we’re seeing here is not merely distrust in the House health-care reform bill. It’s distrust in the political system. A healthy relationship does not require an explicit detailing of the “institutional checks” that will prevent one partner from beating or killing the other. In a healthy relationship, such madness is simply unthinkable. If it was not unthinkable, then no number of institutional checks could repair that relationship. Similarly, the relationship between the protesters and the government is not healthy. The protesters believe the government capable of madness. There is no evidence for that claim, which means that there is no answer for it, either. (Emphasis added)
Will Wilkerson disputes that and does so in such a way that puts the argument squarely in the lap of progressives:
It requires an amazing kind of selective amnesia to think that there is “no evidence’ that the U.S. government is “capable of madness.” The government of the United States invaded Iraq and its agents have killed many tens of thousands people on the basis of the fact that some Saudis trained in Afganistan flew planes into the World Trade Center, plus some lies. Torture, extraordinary rendition, indefinite detention, etc. I call that madness. Of course, Ezra means the other parts of government concerned with domestic affairs. But not the parts that break into peoples’ houses and destroy their lives for selling contraband herbs, or that subject us constantly to mendacious propaganda about drugs. Our government — and by extension our fellow citizens — is capable of terrible things and proves it every single day. Is it really possible to love government so much, to invest so much hope in its benevolent efficacy, that we grow blind to its evident capacity for evil? Anyway, there must be some parts of the government that are not capable of madness. Ezra invites us to think about those when considering health care reform. Will you accept?
Certainly one can object to many things the government does as “madness” such as the War on Drugs, the insane affront to civil rights with RICO seizures, sneak-and-peek search warrants and every other statute that was created with good intentions that have nibbled away at out liberties (Yes, I know, the slippery slope argument is considered a logical fallacy but there’s no dearth of evidence that it is real.)
I think that Conor Friedersdorf has it right about partisans.
It is notable that the mainstream Republican position is that the President is a mysterious quasi-socialist who isn’t to be trusted… except with sweeping executive powers to do pretty much anything he wants in foreign policy… whereas the mainstream Democratic position is that it’s irrational to fear that the federal government will engage in obviously immoral practices… except for all the torture it committed and detainees it abused over the last 8 years.
Me, I trust almost nothing the government does which should not surprise anyone familiar with me. But I have asked members of both parties in the partisan debate the question posed here and, remarkably, I get mush for answers.
What we need is to educate the populace enough that they achieve a full understanding of the capabilities of the government. That will scare the Hell out of them.
Yes, Steve, educate the populace. I can hardly wait for your first class to be held. It oughtta be good.
This is an interesting discussion to have. Government is very,very big, and most of it is not under popular control.
But there are parts of government that do perform good serviced to we the ordinary people – Social Security and Medicare, Medicaid and the VA, Forest Service and BLM,NPS – people are not getting wealthy off these programs,and millions are being served or helped. (Medicare D – pharma got their mitts on it – I realize). It’s interesting and not at all surprising that these are the examples righties use when they talk about ‘gubbmint’ – they mean those parts of government that actually work for ordinary people. That’s very toolish. Where government does work well and serve people well, it comes under attack.
Anyway, health care is a battle for control of government, for we the people, or they, the corporations. The latter is winning. They are very very powerful. The current propaganda campaign is just a slight muscle-flexing operation. The real power is working behind closed doors in Washington. We’re screwed.
Anyway, there are parts of government that serve ordinary people, and these parts are no threat to us whatsoever. Social Security has not enslaved anyone,nor has Medicaid or the VA. That’s why those programs are popular.
There are parts of government under control of corporate wealth, however – the military, the National Security State, the SEC and Homeland Security, CIA the rest of the alphabet soup. Those parts of government not under popular control represent a threat not just to Americans, but to the whole world.
Mush.
Never mind that SS, Medicare and Medicaid are going bust, some in the next seven years, or that the VA is on the hook because they save money by not sterilizing their colonoscopy equipment between uses, other than that they are just fine.
Mark is the perfect example of why education is needed. Ignoring the reality of the situation but proceeding on his merry way through fantasy ville, he is demanding that we all accompany him on his path. Of course the reality is that Mark is incapable of learning through observation. He has to rely on his fairy tale world of made up facts.
I think “mush” is not at all useful here. You don’t ask the question in an honest fashion, as you have your answers before you even ask your questions. Kind of pointless if you’re not honest.
Let’s turn it around. In every area where the private sector has failed, be it news, health care or pensions, or even garbage collection, please explain to me in your erudite and arrogant tone why you keep going back to that sector for answers. Isn’t that by definition insane?
Let’s take it a step further. When the private sector fails, you always say it’s government’s fault. When government succeeds, you always say sure, but it’s about to fail, like stupid Steve just did. Isn’t your reasoning circular? Isn’t it self-serving?
And in the end, doesn’t it point to a mushy brain?
Steve – you can’t possibly ‘educate’ me. You just wrote one whole paragraph full of ignorant, stupid statements. Instead of educating me, maybe you can just blow me.
Ooh, nice comeback. Well thought out in your usual way.
Uhh, Steve, your comeback (either one) was completely devoid of facts. You might want to actually support your position before you accuse Mark. Just sayin …
I would simply like to interject with…”Nanny nanny poo poo.”
I am firmly in the “I don’t trust Government” camp (have been most of my life – even when I worked for them), but this debate over health care has gotten rediculous. It somewhat reminds me of the news stories from the 60’s protesting the Vietnam War. There is so much dis-information floating around it is impossible to sort the “wheat from the chaff” so to speak. When an oppurtunity comes to actually talk to one of the lawmakers about it – in person – some fifth grade reject decides to organize a protest so that no one gets to hear what these lawmakers are actually thinking or doing. It make me sad that it is the “conservatives” resorting to these grade school tactics this time but there is plenty of “progressive” antics to point out as well.
I firmly believe that the American Health Care (and Insurance) system is broken. When my mother (who lives on Social Security) has to shell out $140.00 a month for private supplimentary insurance (to cover what medicare doesn’t cover), and that figure has increased over $40 in less than four years, there is a serious problem with even the part of the health care system that no one wants to talk about.
I would love to see an actual, fact based and reasonable discussion about health care reform that wasn’t derailed by partisan efforts to distort the situation. It is unlikely that it will ever occur.
Mush
Moorcat
First, I ask the question in a perfectly honest way. How can you accuse the government of corruption and then implore it to fix problems?
Health care hasn’t “failed.” I’ll stipulate it’s underperformed in many areas but at the same time it has produced over 3/4ths of the world’s medical innovations over the last 20 years. So pick your failures but at least be honest about it.
The vast majority of pension failures have had to do with bankruptcies. Should we repeal the business cycle or outlaw companies going BK? It’s unfortunate for the recipients but the case can be made that workers have been made more complacent by the big government “put” to the Pension Guarantee Benefit Corporation. Would not all of those “victims” been better off if they had been paid their pension funds as they “earned” them? Oh, I forgot, you think people are too stupid to be responsible for themselves.
Garbage collection? Frankly I haven’t lived with public garbage collection for over 30 years and I can’t think of private collection ever failing me.
You say Social Security isn’t “corrupt”. I say it’s the most corrupt system that the U.S. has ever endeavored. It’s corrupt in it’s presentation and is sold as an inter-generational compact of which it’s funders have had almost no input. It transfers wealth from the least well-off cohort to the most well-off cohort. Assuming that American’s believe that we need to insure a base level of income for seniors (which I think they do) it makes more sense to make it an outright welfare system and means test it. Instead it was sold as an insurance annuity product (a “noble lie”) which, if run by the private sector, would be put out of business for its actuarial unsoundness. The same is true for Medicare. I don’t say it will fail. I say it has failed (remember that International Harvester lost money for 34 consecutive years too and still make payroll. ) And who benefits in the matrix of power by creating and keeping these Ponzi schemes – career politicians. Free money is pretty damn popular.
Lastly, I don’t hold the market out as a panacea but you either dismiss the real argument of free market advocates or you’re too thick to understand it. The argument is that real market forces are inherently better at the distribution of resources than any central planning can be. That doesn’t mean that they’re (subjectively) “fair” in any single case or that markets won’t fail – they do. But they self-correct faster than corrections imposed by central planning (find someone who will buy a CDO today at par – besides the government – and prove me wrong.) Furthermore my distrust of government does not imply a trust in corporations. I have often quoted Schumpeter’s saying that the biggest danger to capitalism are capitalists. But it’s much easier to collectively punish corporations – unless government protects them – and in businesses failing and others starting via creative destruction we don’t allow huge systemic institutions that are nearly impossible to change to fix the status quo.
Yes, to think that government can’t engage in madness simply because there is no overt business interest is summarily naive. The political class seeks power with or without the nature of capitalism.
Oh but Mr. Budge, a true Capitalist wouldn’t be a threat to Capitalism would he.
We need to stop letting the charlatens skate. We need to expose them for the corrupted statists that they truly are.
A TRUE Capitalist is nothing more than an honest man or woman who is willing to trade with another honest man or woman in an open and free manner.
JAC,
I don’t know what a TRUE Capitalist is per se but the fact is that captains of industry – acting in their self interest – will take every advantage over competitors. It’s like the question; should we expect a dog to be anything but a dog?
That’s why it’s all the more important that the government be constrained in both size and power to enforce limits on rent seeking. You know, like Willie Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks – “because that’s where the money is.”
[...] That was, until I attended the Stevensville Creamery Picnic Parade. It seems that the blind rage expressed by many on the right of the Health Care issue spilled over into the Parade. I personally saw both the signs in question and it really makes me sad that this issue – which effects EVERY single American – can’t be discussed in a reasonable and adult fashion. A few have commented on the breakdown of reasonable discourse on the subject Here and Here. [...]
спасибо