Too Far?
You’ve all heard about the Letterman/Palin dustup. I won’t go into the details other than to say that I have always thought that Letterman is a funny guy, and I think he crossed the line here making a joke about the sexual proclivities of a 14-year old girl.
I definitely think it’s a lot easier to make fun of Republicans in our society than it is to make fun of Democrats, although I freely admit we can argue all day about whether is true.
In any event, I thought this post made a good point about his non-apologetic apology:
Being so very much smarter than Sarah Palin, you’d think Letterman and his writers and his producers would have been able to work out the difference between one Palin daughter and another. I’m pretty sure Sarah Palin can tell them apart, but the combined brains of Letterman’s CBS team evidently cannot. Nor will they acknowledge their error, if error it was. An assist from Jim Treacher: “Here, Dave, let me try to help you out: ‘Governor Palin, I apologize for my amazingly stupid and cruel jokes about your daughter, and for being too lazy to even make sure I was joking about the correct one. It was wrong to lash out at you through your children, and I won’t ever do it again.’ If you’re capable of saying that, then maybe we’ll think about letting you off the hook.”
What the he** difference does it make which daughter he was talking about? For a grown man to make such a remark about any kid (14 or 18) is plain WRONG.
Actually to say such a thing about anyone on national tv is tasteless and tactless and stupid. Todd Palin ought to call on Letterman in private and explain to him that what he did is not acceptable.
Suppose a “conservative comedian” made a crack that Letterman’s wife was mistaken for a coyote while she was out on the ranch? Imagine the uproar from the left! Letterman ceased being funny some 25 yrs ago. He’s a sad statement to “overstaying your welcome.” Letterman and his ilk at CBS, NBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC are the reasons their ratings are the lowest ever.
These late night shock jocks will never reach the class of Johnny Carson. He knew where to draw the line.
to Senior Blonde -
It makes a big difference. Bristol Palin is a pseudo-public figure doing a tour speaking about her experiences. She’s fair game. Since she and her mother are promoting abstinence and in many respects hypocritical about out, I think the joke was on target (not personally funny, but Letterman’s humor isn’t what I’m into). He clearly indicated it was Bristol he was referring to.
The family is obviously sensitive to this subject because its an embarrassment for them, mainly because of the GOP/Right’s stance on such matters. Lets face it, teens who get pregnant when they should have used protection are fair game for such perceptions. Putting them in the public eye (and again, Bristol is doing this on her own with her tour) opens them up to media scrutiny.
If you don’t want it, stay out of the picture. Bending someone’s words to make a joke sound perverted and disgusting doesn’t help your cause.
I tend to agree, but the fact that he fact that he and his writers were too lazy to even defame the child he says he meant to, and that his protestations to the effect are supposed to constitute an “apology,” help frame the outlines of the box he’s put himself in.
Which might make sense if Bristol had been at the game he was talking about. A discrepancy he has yet to address.
Nobody has bent his words by pointing out who he was really directing them at.
“He clearly indicated it was Bristol he was referring to.”
He might have…after the fact. The point of the post I linked to, though, was that they should have known ahead of time that they were making a sexual reference to a 14-year old.
Gregg Smith: “He might have…after the fact.”
It would have had to have been “after the fact” because he mentioned no names from the Palin family (other than Sarah herself) during “the fact”. It’s convenient to say that he was referring to Willow Palin because she happened to be traveling with her mother at the time, but Letterman in no way indicated he was talking about her.
Mihalis- Do you think the 14 year old’s friends understand your “technically speaking” defense of Letterman? It really takes a worm of a man to very publicly demean a young girl because you dislike her mother. It may have been unintentional that the 14 year old was the butt of the joke but his blame the victim apology makes it intentional for me. At best, due to his own mistake, Letterman placed his reputation and feelings over that of a child. A man with any integrity wouldn’t do that.
“but Letterman in no way indicated he was talking about her.”
BS, he knew it and if you were honest you would admit it too. I’m sure the Letterman and his writers have the Malia & Sasha jokes all tee’d up. Should be some good ones from their overseas shopping trip.
That’s the core of fake outrage, missing the point completely. Willow Palin was not the butt of the joke. The hypocrisy of Sarah Palin and A-Rod’s sexual proclivities were. If one accepts those simple facts, then it wouldn’t have mattered which daughter Palin took to the game.
Letterman’s joke was obviously tasteless. But, considering the audience reaction, it was not ’stupid’. It got exactly the reaction that Letterman is payed to get: laughs.
And an aside to Jim Treacher: I hope with little confidence that you know as long as Letterman get’s the laughs he’s payed for, then you can hold your breath until you turn blue and explode. You, my friend, have no hook big enough to bring down David Letterman. But please continue to think yourself mighty. It’s almost as amusing as Late Night with David Letterman.
http://www.apologizetoSarah.com … I think they set it up during the campaign, since every joke that pointed to her legend inadequacies was considered crossing the line. This is classic right wing media management – make the reaction to the offsense bigger than the offense itself. Fun to watch, but disturbing how everyone plays along. If I were Letterman, I’d tell the Palin family to grow a set – you can’t behave like trailer trash and expect to be treated like British royalty.
wolfpack: “Do you think the 14 year old’s friends understand…”
I think they understand the joke wasn’t about Willow. Sorry, but when someone makes a joke about Sarah Palin’s daughter, odds are pretty good it’s about the one that people know about. Heck, I had to look Sarah Palin up on Wikipedia to find out the 14 year olds name was Willow.
Mark T: “I’d tell the Palin family to grow a set”
I agree. It kind of pisses me off that Letterman even made an attempt to apologize for this charade.
It shouldn’t. He’s a comedian covering the network’s ass. He makes them money, they pay him a lot for making them money, he apologizes when people who rarely watch his show make a fuss … and the great circle of life continues. Being pissed off that he attempted to apologize is, yet again, making more of this kerfuffle than it is worth. Yeah, I’d like to see him flip the bird to the Palins. But then again, this is David Letterman. You can be certain that he will target them for all the comedic value they’re worth.
Well, I can tell you that in my case it isn’t “fake outrage,” because I am not outraged.
I do think that Letterman crossed the line. Ha ha. It’s funny. I get it. I really don’t think that it is such a bad thing that a society have some minimal set of standards. Not imposed by force, but just some things that most of us can agree we should probably pass on.
Making a sexual reference to a 14-year old on national tv because you don’t like her mom, well, I would like to think that this is one of those little lines that somebody might have said “You know, this isn’t such a good idea…”
Mihalis, with all due respect, your argument that he meant Bristol doesn’t pass the giggle test. Um, let’s see. Sarah Palin had attended a Yankees game that day with a daughter. That nite on tv, Letterman made a joke about Sarah Palin and her daughter at the Yankees’ game, involving sex with a Yankee.
Oh, he meant the other daughter, who wasn’t at the game with Sarah Palin. Suuuuure he did.
The “joke” only makes sense if A-Rod impregnates someone whom he can reach during the seventh-inning stretch. How can the joke be about someone who’s 3,000 miles away? The other “joke” he told was that Governor Palin was having trouble keeping her daughter away from former NY governor and enjoyer of prostitutes Elliot Spitzer. Again, how difficult would that be when the daughter he “clearly meant” was on the other side of the continent? Oh, and classy move to say the daughter he meant to imply was a prostitute was the 19-year-old one.
I admit the outrage is laid on a bit thick in some quarters, but it’s hard to take seriously the people who are stretching more than Reed Richards to make excuses for what is at best a slur by incompetence. Furthermore, I find it amusing that people who make their living manufacturing outrage are complaining about manufactured outrage. I hope Letterman enjoys people parsing his words in the worst possible way for their own gain. He helped teach them how to do it.
Gregg, with all due respect, your argument fails the same doesn’t pass the giggle test either. Um, let’s see. David Letterman makes a joke about Sarah Palin’s daughter involving sex with a Yankee.
Oh, he meant the other daughter, the one no one has ever heard of, the one that actually didn’t get knocked-up when she was 17 and then started running around hypocritically promoting abstinence only education like it actually works. Suuuuure he did.
I think Letterman should consult with Limbaugh and McCain about the best way to apologize for this kind of comment. Them coming from the party of family values and all.
Aj, surely you’re not that humor impaired? The joke made sense because A-rod is a known horndog and Sarah Palin is hypocritical about her beliefs regarding teen pregnancy. Or do you imagine that the 12 inch pianist joke only makes sense if one has encountered a genie for themselves? The joke obviously made sense to the audience. No one is defending it as ‘classy’. In fact, no one here has really been defending the joke at all. We’ve been defending David Letterman’s telling of the joke in the face of those who think he should be burned at the stake for such witchcraft (an overstatement that I am well aware of, Gregg.)
Gregg, he did cross a line. He crossed a line drawn by yourself and Jim Treacher and Michelle Malkin and the entirety of the right-wing outrage machine. So what? That’s a serious question, and not meant to be rude. So what? I didn’t find the joke all that funny. That doesn’t mean I will make a moral stand on it. Though I didn’t watch it, I can guarantee that last night, David Letterman made jokes about CBS, the corporation that pays him his exorbitant salary. I can assure that because he does so every night. The man is a comedian, not a moral teacher. Your line, that he crossed, doesn’t matter one whit to his comedic talent.
I doubt that one person reading this thread hasn’t heard of Andrew Dice Clay. He crossed a helluva lot of lines, deliberately. He made anal sex jokes about juveniles all the time. Within the context of his routine, that was considered funny. How about Sam Kinison, laughing at starving children and making fun of Vietnam vets (of which he was one)? These guys make money (‘made’ in Sam’s sense, RIP) because they cross lines of decency. So did the Marx brothers. “If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?” I think the question at hand is what do you expect of David Letterman? Do you expect contrite apologies and confession? Treacher expects that he “remain on the hook”. Treacher is an idiot. There is no hook. Do you expect that Letterman should pay money to Palin and her brood for these egregious insults? I’m seriously asking. The guy told a joke. That’s what he gets paid to do. So what?
If I may contribute a slightly different viewpoint on this…
I am the mother of two grown and now married daughters. One of them was, as is so glibly referenced, “knocked up” when she was 17. Let me share with those of you who have never had the experience – THERE IS NOTHING FRIGGIN’ FUNNY ABOUT AN UNWED TEENAGE PREGNANCY!!! No matter where you come out on the abortion issue, how you feel about abstinence, or what the age of the girl, it is a traumatic, emotional, difficult experience for everyone. And – again – no matter whether the baby is aborted, adopted out, or kept, it has lifelong impact on everybody involved.
Trust me on this – the outrage that many of us are feeling about this insensitive, nasty “joke” is not feigned. It was so wrong on so many levels, and his subsequent explanations (certainly not apologies) compounded the travesty.
For those of you who are yukking it up that some asshole comedian made fun of a couple of teenage girls, I hope you never have to go through that experience with your own daughter – because you are so obviously emotionally retarded that you could never provide the love, support, and maturity that situation requires. The whole lot of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
(Did anybody get the impression that my anger was feigned?)
“Oh, and classy move to say the daughter he meant to imply was a prostitute was the 19-year-old one.”
Good one, AJ.
Oh, and Auntie Lib, they all feel sorry for teen moms, as long as they and their families aren’t “hypocritical” about it, you know, like suggesting that it’s a bad thing for teens to be having sex.
Just another example of the coarsening of our society that 1. the joke was made, and 2. that anyone would rise to defend it. Of course, the liberal use of the word hypocrisy flows only one way. I am sure that everyone will just be having a laugh riot when Letterman starts making jokes about Obama’s daughters.
And when he does,. I’m certain that you’ll call him out.
And you stupidly, with no support, accused me of a Straw Man? Steve, you’d best get your … uh … doody together. There, was that polite enough?
And exactly who would that be? Can you explain why? Gee, I don’t know, but could that comment be considered an … insult?
Since Steve appears to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the topic, I would suggest to him that he study this Straw Man fallacy exhibited here, just so that he might figure out what such an object is. By the way, Steve, it’s also an example of an appeal to false authority. Look that one up, too.
Wow. More Straw Man. Good God, Steve, your study is being handed to you. As a legal scholar, how lucky you must feel!
Then I strongly suggest, Auntie, that you not watch Letterman. It’s on on the same channel at the same time every night. It should be easy for you to avoid. There, problem solved. Aren’t we all happy now?
Late to the party.
Shout out to the NOW gang, Letterman made it on their “Hall of Shame”.
http://www.now.org/issues/media/hall-of-shame/
Yeah, Steve! Hit the books. If you want a real lessons in the employment of the Straw Man Fallacy all you have to do is read Obama’s speeches.
Now Buckle down, buster!
Make jokes of candidates if you will, but leave their kids out of it. Have at least a veneer of class.
Auntie Lib: “Let me share with those of you who have never had the experience”
There’s just something funny about how people assume you have no experience with something just because you’ve come to a different conclusion than they did. My mother was 16 when I was born. You want me to order us up some cheese and whine about my childhood? It’s got all sorts of really funny stories in it!
It was a JOKE. Laugh or don’t, then move on.
I don’t think Auntie Lib “assumed” anything of you Mihalis. She WAS trying to speak to those who haven’t had the experience. I didn’t see a list of names-
And it’s still classless
Rocky, I don’t think it’s a bad assumption she was talking about me since I was the one that used the phrase “knocked up”, which is referenced in the sentence immediately before the one I quoted. Attempting to stick to topic (kinda), it’s a lot smaller leap than thinking Letterman was talking about Willow rather than Bristol.
Mihalis ~ No – but I do wonder if your mother considers you a joke? Letterman’s bit may have been an attempt at a joke – but it sure as hell wasn’t funny.
Wulfgar ~ I haven’t watched Letterman in years. He isn’t worth my time. If this hadn’t been such an over the line bit – I wouldn’t have ever known about it. But since it’s all over the web, I have an opinion. Which you are free to take or leave.
Auntie Lib: “No – but I do wonder if your mother considers you a joke?”
Maybe. If you see her, ask her. I’d give you her name, but I don’t know it.
Auntie Lib: “Letterman’s bit may have been an attempt at a joke – but it sure as hell wasn’t funny.”
Fine. You’re in the “don’t laugh” category. Now, move on.
Wulfgar, I’m not humor-impaired in the slightest. I laugh a lot. I’m laughing right now.
So… anyone heard any good Harry Letterman jokes?
“The web” told you to have an opinion about something that isn’t worth your time? Isn’t that what you just wrote?
“Auntie”, and I use that with little respect in mind, you just told us all that you have swallowed whole whatever fake outrage ‘the web’ can serve you. You post here under a pseudonym,. No one really knows, at your choice, whether you actually have any kidlets or not. No one knows if you are even female. And yet you expect others to believe that you have authority about a topic that you learned so much about from “the web”. Lady, and I use that with respect for your pretense, you are so full of beans.
Rocky, I agree with your input, but have to ask. If one gets paid to be funny and is successful, then what incentive does that one have to show any class?
Hmm. Not disagreeing, Sir Mr. Budge Sir, but it would be helpful to the quest of Mr. Eschenbacher if you actually had an example …
Wulfgar ~ The web didn’t tell me to have an opinion. Had Letterman’s remarks not garnered so much attention that virtually every reasonably alert individual in the country has heard about them, I never would have known and couldn’t have cared less. However, since I have heard – and watched – I have – on my own – formed an opinion, of my own free will and based on my own values, experience, knowledge and world view. Please note – I said that Letterman was not worth my time. This issue very much is, however.
As for my anonymity – it is my choice – and I do so in part because I do in fact have kidlets and a husband and several other family members who deserve their privacy. Those who do know me understand completely why I prefer a bit of cover. As for what others think or believe – I have no control. I will however, refer to Mihalis’ post above about her mother’s attitude towards her, given that she was 16 when Mihalis was born: “Maybe. If you see her, ask her. I’d give you her name, but I don’t know it.” Perhaps I am misinterpreting that answer, but it sounds to me like Mihalis’ mother gave her up as an infant. And it sounds to me like Mihalis is still hurting from her mother’s choice. I could be wrong. But, then again, I could be right. And that goes to my point that a teenage pregnancy leaves lots of nasty scars for a long time on a lot of people.
Just saying.
Auntie Lib: “it sounds to me like Mihalis’ mother gave her up as an infant.”
She did.
Auntie Lib: “it sounds to me like Mihalis is still hurting from her mother’s choice.”
I don’t think so. I don’t think anybody expects a 16 year old to be able to adequately raise a child. Not even her child.
Auntie Lib: “I could be wrong.”
There is something you’re wrong about. Copy and paste this into Google:
Greek “everyday common form” Mihalis
Tell me where you went wrong.
Auntie Lib: “that goes to my point that a teenage pregnancy leaves lots of nasty scars for a long time on a lot of people.”
I didn’t bring it up to whine or get any kind of sympathy. I brought it up to give you an idea that I know what kind of effects teen pregnancy has. Despite the fact that I probably feel those effects more than you do, I don’t have any issues with Letterman’s joke. It was a joke. Laugh or don’t. Then move on.
~sigh~ ~facepalm~ ~more sighs~
Yes, and I’m certain you have magical ponies as well. “Auntie”, you’ve claimed authority of opinion based on who you are, and then pridefully, stupidly, proclaim that you disavow who you are. We lesser folk just need to accept that you, who aren’t you, are who you are, who aren’t you, are you. ~sigh~.
You are no one of authority. Your moral caterwauling is a joke, vastly less funny that David Letterman’s. The Intertubes told you to be outraged and you got outraged. Boo hoo for you, phantom. There is no issue beyond Letterman’s joke, and you have no credibility here.
Wulfgar- Are you really trying to put forth the argument that Auntie needs to come out of the closet to be credible with the position that it isn’t cool to pick on little girls? Didn’t you learn that from your dad? Why aren’t you taking Mihalis to task for the whole adoption back story that he used to justify his credibility? Could it be the same reason you side with Letterman? Are you sure your sense of right and wrong are not tainted by your ideology?
What I don’t get, Wulfgar, is why is is somehow disingenuous or lacking credibility for Auntie Lib (or anyone, for that matter) to come on a blog and express her opinion that she thinks Letterman’s joke wsa crappy, but it is not equally so for you to come and say it’s no big deal? I’m not following this.
Mihalis ~ mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maximus culpa. I am profoundly sorry for impugning your manhood. Musta hit one of those identity scars left from your mother’s abandonment of you at birth.
Auntie Lib: “Musta hit one of those identity scars left from your mother’s abandonment of you at birth.”
Or maybe, you made an assumption based off of no information and got the wrong answer. You know, like you did that one time when you assumed that no one here could possibly understand what it was like to be involved in a teen pregnancy? But that was so long ago. It has to have been hours!
Sounds plausible…..
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hWC6hgT6VhpvYr6XcYIPUyNSe0wAD98PU5HO0
You could be right. Have fun standing up for the millionaire TV star against the little girl he humiliated on national TV.
Oh, and I, for one, have no interest in “taking down” David Letterman. I just want him to explain why he made that joke, and apologize to the girl who was hurt by it.
Fun? Showing you to be a misdirecting fool? How could this possibly be fun?
How does it feel to want, Jim? I’d really like to know …
Just curious, but are you going to endorse or attend Malkin’s ‘fire Letterman’ rally?
Gregg, a simple answer. Someone who claims authority over position on a topic while remaining anonymous is silly. Someone who claims authority over a position about a topic over which their anonymous self is presumed to have power due to their assumed persona is heinous. “Auntie’s” attack has all been about an authority she’s never established. If I claimed to be Willow Palin’s psych doctor behind a wall of anonymity, would that lend me credibility? On the surface, of course it would. But most would see the trolling in an instant, if they were willing to look. It is the essence of “false authority”, a well known fallacy. She didn’t claim her opinion as a simple opinion, as you would have it. She claimed her opinion was founded on facts that she herself chose to hide from evidence, but was of authority due to that persona. You are a smart dude. You know that BS when it’s handed to you. Why would you expect less of me?
BS? Perhaps you are making an argumentum ad logicam. A quote that comes to mind is; mankind’s fatal error is thinking what he knows is truth.
Let us know when you plan to start.
You tell me, you’re the one who wants me to shut up.
Is it Malkin’s? Well, the answer is no to both, but I’m interested to see what happens.
One of the things that’s odd about this episode is that Letterman was attacking someone else’s child just a few years after going through the experience in which a man was convicted of plotting to kidnap his own son Harry.
You’d think after an experience like that that Letterman would be particularly sensitive about going after anyone’s kid. Not only did he tell the joke, but he kept digging the hole deeper throughout the week with his “non-apology apologies.”
I’ve seen interviews with a couple people on his staff who say they made an effort to help Obama this year in various ways … in one case by trying to embarrass McCain with a specific question when he was on the show, that sort of thing. I think Letterman’s just gotten bored with being an entertainer/comedian and now wants to push his political views on viewers.
Unfortunately for viewers, his political insights are about as interesting as Donald Duck’s.
How do you know what I want? No, Jimbo. I just want to laugh at you. After all, as Sir Mr. Budge Sir has clearly pointed out:
Yes, Dad, I’m certain that the 4.4 million viewers of Late Night are all torn up about Letterman’s political chicanery. And as viewers leave watching Conan to watch Letterman, I’m certain that CBS is all torn up over this sad spectacle as well.
(A little side note to Mr. Eschenbacher: Steve, kitten, taking quotes out of context and portraying sarcasm as axiom hardly support any point you wish to make. But please, continue to use me as a foil to attract traffic to your site. I’m happy to be available for the job … especially if you choose to run for office again. Then I will gleefully drive eyeballs towards you. ~wink~.)
Your seething might have something to do with it. Take care.